When I wrote my original On London post I never imagined the amount of feedback I would get. Comments were dropping onto the site at a rate that I could barely keep up with let alone reply to. One assertion I made which attracted more attention than most was my claim that America could take a lesson in democracy from countless countries in the world.
The sooner Americans detach themselves from the delusion that they are the sole arbiters of freedom and democracy in the world the better. Countless countries could give America a lesson in those two subjects, especially on human rights.
Well, when you make a statement like that and only expect a handful of people to read it, it can be quite shock to be called to account by dozens of people a few days later:
One note on your thoughts re: Americans thinking they are the arbiters of freedom, though… this is like hating that Yankees fans consider themselves the arbiters of baseball. Sure, other teams may play the game, but doesn’t it seem like the Yanks are always around when it counts? Mike
Well, as a New Yorker ( who lived in London from 99-04 ) I can only say that I don’t think this way. What I do think is that over my lifetime it has been America alone that has pushed for freedom and democracy in the world. Which other nation has done more? Pogue Mahone
If they are “countless,†why name, say, five countries that can teach the United States a lesson in freedom and democracy?
Caveat: No EU member state qualifies. They handed their freedom and democracy over to a bunch of apparatchicks in Brussels who dictate what laws they must obey, whether the citizenry of any member country likes it or not. TC@LEatherPenguin
(The emphasis is mine.)
Far from saying the US was somehow lacking in the democracy department my point was that there are plenty of other countries in the world which are equally and rightly proud of their commitment to democracy and human rights. I don’t deny that the Yanks are always around when it counts, but as far as I know they have been known to hang around for some time before jumping in. They have also been known to back some pretty horrible people in their pursuit of freedom and democracy. As for Europeans being ruled by apparatchiks in Brussels, I never noticed any of my civil liberties being curtailed when I lived in Europe. In fact, if I lived in Turkey right now, I might be quite glad that the country was having to modify some of its laws in order to gain acceptance.
I don’t want to get drawn into a slanging match over this. On London was supposed to be a defense of the United States and an explanation of how and why my views had changed. If anything, it was an argument tipped towards the right. So why did so much of the hostility I receive come from the right? Why amongst all of the many kind messages I received from some wonderful people–most of them American—did I also have to put up with messages like this one:
You don’t like “Freedom Isn’t Free” tees? Maybe I don’t like a bunch of gap-toothed Brits claiming moral high-ground. Just a thought. Next time you are in the DC area, visit the Arlington National Cementery. Freedom is not free. Some of us Americans prefer to distill our messages. Simple people. Simple lives.
Actually, I retract that comment. The British have always stood shoulder-to-shoulder with its American ally - in deed if not always in word. That is enough. You answered your own question in your essay. If not now, when? If not us, who?
Exactly, if not now, when? If not us, who? So why the gap-toothed Brits reference? Because some people still think the moral high ground is theirs. The truth is it belongs to no one. It’s shared between us all. That’s partly what On London was all about.
It was growing up in the United States opened my “left eye” and time spent in Europe and, especially, Asia (starting with three years living in Britain between 1994 and 1997) that opened my right one.
Both anti-Americanism and pro-American exceptionalism proceed from the mistaken premise - though the former would be loath to admit it - that the world revolves around the United States, the latter as a force for good, the former are a force for evil.
In Asia, I came to understand that the world does not revolve around the United States, nor even the West. During my time in Asia, Islamic extremists carried out pogroms against Christians in Indonesia, bombings and kidnappings in the Philippines and the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. The non-Muslim peoples and cultures of the developing world were not exempt from their wrath.
I came to realize that Islamic extremism was not a reaction against the West but at heart xenophobic bigotry against non-Muslims, poor and brown as well as rich and white. What’s worse is that it is expansionist. Islamic extremism does not oppose imperialism; it IS imperialism.
As far as I am concerned, standing in solidarity with Sudanese animists, Thai Buddhists, Indian Hindus and other developing world victims of Islamic extremism is more authentically progressive than making excuses for their attackers.
Those are fine words indeed. And a very interesting perspective. Thank you.
As you can probably tell, I originally tried to submit this on the “On London” and “Buckling…” threads but, by that point, they had, well, buckled. So I’m glad I got the chance to slip in this comment in a semi-relevant thread.
How are you enjoying New York? (Sorry about the summers, by the way. When it’s not pouring, it’s sticky. And some older New York apartment buildings don’t allow air conditioners. Well…they’re not supposed to allow air conditioners.)
Glad you did comment…And I’m loving New York. Best place in the world (so far). Yeah, the heat is a pain but the city comes alive in the summer. And all the outdoor movies and music and barbeques more than make up for the stickiness. Plus, we’ve still got about three months to go before it starts getting cold!
Has anyone introduced you to “proper” barbeque yet? Not hot dogs and hamburgers, but ribs, pulled pork and the like, slow-smoked until fork-tender.
Sounds delicious. But no.
I am aware of the freedom enjoyed in many other countries ( often the result of US led efforts ironically ) - and they can and should be proud of their own democratic systems
What I notice is that the support given to emerging democracies from these proud peoples generally amounts to lip service
Of course the US has allied with loathsome regimes in the past - much as Churchills Britain was allied with Joe Stalin - the biggest mass murderer in history - but the fact remains that it has been the USA that has supported the growth of democracy around the world in the last 50 years
C’mon - where is this “commitment to democracy and human rights” today?
The people of the UK don’t have any interest in helping these 2 efforts in Iraq do they?
And the people AND governments in Europe have made it clear they don’t care either
Why shouldn’t America and the CoW be proud?
Sounds delicious. But no.
More’s the pity. Real barbecue is to food what jazz and rock & roll are to music: a uniquely and quintessentially American contribution.
Try Pearson’s or Blue Smoke when you get the chance.
Pogue, you’re right. No one in the UK gives a damn. Nor in the rest of Europe either.
Tell me, why do you think Americans do care and Europeans don’t?
PS And how can the CoW be proud when it is made up of people who don’t care like the UK?
I kind of wish I hadn’t said that. Just ignore me. The frustration is starting to seep out the pores…
Well to start there are lots of people in the US who don’t give a damn about the fate of the Iraqi people either - they had a large convention last summer in Boston iirc
The “they aren’t capable of democracy, its none of our business” crowd has a large following in the United States - and its growing as the relentless drumbeat of negative reporting comes out of Iraq
But as large as this crowd is in the USA - its an overwhelming majority in Europe - even in staunch CoW partner the UK
So why is it not as large in the US?
Part of the reason is the ability to focus blame on the US - blame for ALL of the worlds ills ( see Ken Livingstones comments ) - this is a luxury Europeans and the rest of the world have while we in the United States are less able to do this
The majority of American’s consider the US to be a force for good in the world - the majority in Europe see the US as a source of, if not evil, then at least bad intentions and ham fisted power
So how can the CoW be proud? Leadership gets much of the credit - and an electorate that has avoided the easy answers like Red Kens and chosen to stick with the principaled leadership of Blair and Belesconi and others
There are still enough people in Europe who don’t agree with Ken L - who don’t think the stagnation and hatred from the ME is all our fault - who don’t think Israel is the reason 300M people sitting on the world largest oil reserves have managed to slide backwards in development
I am at a loss to understand the Euro opinions myself to be honest
It seems to me like scapegoating ( Israel, the US, themselves ) is chosen as the easy way out - rather than confront the reality that maybe its not anyones fault but rather the people and leaders in the ME
Oh - and 3 more bombs in London
Maybe Ken will explain this is because of our relationship with Pinochet
Some interesting comments there Pogue, many of which I agree with.
I agree that it’s too easy to attribute much of the world’s ills to the United States. And I agree that it is easier to blame the US, Israel etc than it is to accept the fact that the root causes of Islamic terrorism lie elsewhere.
But I don’t agree that the majority of people in Europe view the situation either in terms of “they aren’t capable of democracy,” and/or “it’s none of our business.”
I think it all comes back to blame…Blaming the US. Blaming themselves.
As for principled leadership. Well, I admit to having some admiration for Tony Blair. But I need a lot of convincing that Berlusconi is anything other than an opportunist who fancies himself as a bit of an international playboy and who can, if you’ll pardon the phrase, kiss my mahone!
PS If you’re looking for other principled European leaders, you could start with the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
And don’t forget John Howard in Oz
But I can’t understand why you aren’t aware of the large numbers of people in Europe who do think its none of our business
Isn’t this the whole WMD thing?
If Saddam didn’t have em - and we weren’t in “imminent” danger from them - then the war is illigitimate…therfor - none of our business what he does
I don’t think people belive “it’s none of our business” because Saddam didn’t have WMD.
In my mind, the “none of our business” brigade are the people who switch over and see what else is on. They’re just as common here as they are there…
If by “none of our business” you mean the people who opposed the invasion. Well, maybe they would have been persuaded if they believed the CoW’s motives (ie Saddam was a threat) and believed that Iraq would be better off.
Unfortunately, right now, both of these beliefs are on shaky ground.